Wikinfo:Village pump/Archive 3

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GetWiki?

Sorry for the dumb question, but what is GetWiki, and how do you use it to import articles fast? It seems the articles on GetWiki don't tell you what it is to you, really. For example, do you install it on your computer? Or if it is a Mediawiki fork and already operational on Wikinfo, well, how do you use it to import? If I have time, I know a few hundred articles I could import, most of which you probably don't have. NameToFollow 23:28, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Ok, I figured out there is a view source link when you click a red link. But didn't dare import it because of copyright. Is there a way to just click "import" or something? NameToFollow 23:38, 6 November 2007 (EST)

We used to use GetWiki which had an automatic import feature, but lagged behind in many other ways, so we quit using it. If you import an article put {{Wiki}} at the bottom of the page and it will generate a link back to Wikipedia automatically and provide copyright information. If {{Wiki}} doesn't work, you can do it by hand. You need the name of the source, a link to the source, and you need to set forth the copyright, especially if it is not GFDL, Creative Commons, for example. You may import anything you are interested in and it helps also to update articles. Take care to look at the history before you import so you don't simply delete someone's work. Fred 23:59, 6 November 2007 (EST)
Cool, thanks- that makes it a lot more simple (:
On updating articles, a lot of them say they were changed when imported. But the WP articles are much more developed. So, what to do in that case? NameToFollow 19:53, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Made a reasonable effort to incorporate any contribution by a Wikinfo editor into the updated article. If the article as modified here takes a whole new direction, import the article as Knowledge according to Wikipedia or "Whatever according to Wikipedia". Fred 20:52, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Ok I see. Do a diff on it and see if it looks significant. I was mostly thinking of articles with no changes but the import. Thanks.
There are a lot of articles here that were imported years ago, and are pretty sparse on content. Many of those articles are now Featured Articles on WP, and I haven't run across one yet that had been edited here (except for reverted vandalism) since the first import, so I am just overwriting them with a newer import. But I am checking the history before overwriting to be sure that I am not undoing any significant work. If it's just a minor spelling correction or the like, I don't consider that significant work, and the history will still retain the old version. - Crockspot 19:55, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Remove index.php from URIs?

Would it be possible to make the URIs a bit nicer by removing the index.php? Sam Wilson (Canberra, Australia) 20:10, 11 November 2007 (EST)

Yes, if I were a better coder. Fred 23:03, 11 November 2007 (EST)

A New Comment

Find here a new comment made as a test. Fred 23:08, 11 November 2007 (EST)

I responded first. Do I get a prize for noticing your post? ;-) - Nhprman 21:50, 12 November 2007 (EST)
Just testing the problem above. Fred 22:53, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Space

I'm sorry to bother with this, but does anyone just happen to know about how much space WI and WP take up on a server? I actually don't know in what format pages are stored on a wiki, or if any form of compression might be used? NameToFollow 03:10, 15 November 2007 (EST)

WP takes up several Gigabytes. WI takes up a lot less because (at present) it has a lot less content.--Yehudi 08:17, 15 November 2007 (EST)
Mediawiki, the software for both, takes up just a bit. Images, which go on the server itself, take up tons, but that partly depends on file size. Wikipedia, at Wikimedia Commons, has a slew of 2 and 3 meg images. We have them only if someone ignores our 150kb limit. The database is just text, so doesn't take much, however, besides the number of articles, the big difference is that Wikipedia has extensive history on many articles which is also stored. All things considered, Wikinfo probably takes less than 1%, of what Wikipedia is taking. And that is just considering the English version. Fred 08:51, 15 November 2007 (EST)
I just backed up the database, it's a little over 1 and a half gigabytes. I don't have an accurate number for the images, but I think they are about the same. So a total of about 2 gb. Fred 13:53, 18 November 2007 (EST)
So you could probably run all of Wikipedia, and a hundred WIs (including the previous versions of pages), on less than a hundred GB of disk space? They must have all those servers just to deal with the editing process, rather than because they are necessary for storage. That's valuable information. Thanks (: NameToFollow 19:49, 15 November 2007 (EST)
It speeds things up. When we had trouble in the past it was slowness. I think bandwidth has a lot to do with it. Fred 23:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)
It's good that the data is not too hefty- it makes it possible to use the information in practice to do new experiments. It really feels to me at WP that things are at a standstill. Both because of the quarreling, and because you can't accurately portray anything controversial, and the notability requirement, and the unwillingness to ban users who are mean to others. I like Wikinfo, but I don't see how OR can be integrated directly in the articles- I think it should have its special place, linked or marked out in the article. Or, for articles which don't have notability enough to have published sources, there should be a tag that says so- not a judenstern, but just a heads-up. NameToFollow 01:37, 16 November 2007 (EST)

OR should be cited and footnoted. Posting controversial material on Wikipedia is not easy. I do it a lot myself, but only when well cited. I see the contradiction, though. The next editor may not accept prior insertions of original research. Fred 13:53, 18 November 2007 (EST)

Well I don't seem to be able to find a way to do this so I'm sharing with Nametofollow.

Sorry, I do my best. Fred 17:05, 10 December 2007 (EST) Fred I'm very sorry if I offended you that was not my intent. You have always been willing and able to help with and or fix problems in the past and I was hoping you could do so again.The thing of it is that when I search either google or yahoo I get results but, when i try to access one of those result i get URL not found etc. Could you fix this?

thanks in advance Bert Carpenter 17:24, 10 December 2007 (EST)BertBert Carpenter 17:24, 10 December 2007 (EST) Bert Carpenter 07:35, 12 December 2007 (EST)BertBert Carpenter 07:35, 12 December 2007 (EST)

Please give me a few examples. Please keep in mind that Google stores information in other computers we have no control over. Fred 10:52, 12 December 2007 (EST)
I have found the problem, which is in the interwiki.sql file in the Mediawiki software [1]. I have asked the maintainers of the software to change it and also to assign the abbreviation "wi" to us. I have corrected our our own internal wikinfo link, wi. The interwiki link wikinfo is no good as it a namespace here. Fred 12:39, 12 December 2007 (EST)

Thank you again! Bert Carpenter 17:53, 12 December 2007 (EST)BERTBert Carpenter 17:53, 12 December 2007 (EST)

Upgrade

An attempt will be made to upgrade to mediawiki 1.11.1 on Wednesday. With luck, some problems may clear up, or perhaps much evil will result... Fred 18:27, 18 November 2007 (EST)

This nightmare worked out OK. Fred 22:44, 21 November 2007 (EST)

Scripts

Are there any scripts resident that we can use, like popups? (I don't think we are busy enough to need rollback scripts like twinkle). If not, are we allowed to import them from wikipedia? I'm assuming that user scripts published to WP would be GFDL, but not sure if there are other issues involved. I really feel low tech without them. :) - Crockspot 22:36, 21 November 2007 (EST)

Why don't you try it and see what happens. If you import them as text, please credit them appropriately. You are not limited to GFDL here, but you must set forth any alternative on the affected page. However, most everything should be licensed under an open source license, of some sort. Fred 22:43, 21 November 2007 (EST)
I'll look into it and report back. It probably won't be immediate. - Crockspot 23:05, 21 November 2007 (EST)
I left a message for Lupin to elicit his thoughts on the matter. - Crockspot 00:03, 22 November 2007 (EST)
I was playing around with one Greasemonkey which has a script WIKIPEDIA ANIMATE 1.0 and I get way into it, and it starts asking for a Windows (exe) text editor. I can't do anything with that. People who use Windows would have to fiddle with that to convert it to Wikinfo. I don't think it would be that hard though. That's the policy, don't deviate from Wikipedia except for a reason related to better or different content. Make it as easy as possible for someone used to Wikipedia to edit here. Fred 08:51, 22 November 2007 (EST)
  • I copied Lupin's script to User:Crockspot/popups.js, created a monobook.js file importing it, and flushed my cache. It does not appear to function at all. I assume that the code has wikipedia-specific dependencies. As I am not a java scripter, that is about all I can do at this time. I'll report my test to Lupin on WP. - Crockspot 22:03, 22 November 2007 (EST)
  • I noticed I was missing navpops.css, so I copied that into my user space as well, and made a couple of pointer adjustments to the popups script, but it still fails. There are a lot of wikipedia links within the code, so if this is to work, someone who actually knows what they are doing will have to work on it. I'm just a monkey-see-monkey-do hack. - Crockspot 22:26, 22 November 2007 (EST)
  • I got a response from Lupin. It seems it can be done, but I'm doing something wrong. Someone with a little more savvy and probably admin powers can probably make this happen. - Crockspot 10:57, 27 November 2007 (EST)

Adapting from WP

Quick question on adapting content, should we leave off the links to the other-language-wikipedias that appear at the bottom of the source of most WP articles? - Crockspot 19:35, 22 November 2007 (EST)

    • Always leave them, they offer our readers a window to other languages. Unless they don't work. I need to get into the database and fix the ones that don't, but we don't need them around as red links in the meantime. Removing them is not a priority though, and a good reminder to get it done. Fred 21:49, 22 November 2007 (EST)
  • I think I answered my own question, found some articles that include the links, and they appear to work, linking to the WP interlanguage articles, so I will leave the links in. - Crockspot 19:53, 22 November 2007 (EST)

OK, another question. Is there any organized effort (ie. project) to adapt WP articles? I was thinking that rather than random adaptation based on individual interests, it would be good to focus on adapting Featured Articles. These are the cream of Wikipedia's crop, and would enhance Wikinfo greatly to have adapted. - Crockspot 20:04, 22 November 2007 (EST)

  • Snagging the best articles from there seems like a great idea. Though I like the idea that people's general interest seems to guide what gets put here. I adapt WP articles for Wikinfo, but articles here are generally more abbreviated and "tighter" in their writing than at WP (though I don't know of any rule saying this must be so) and they do NOT abide by the "neutral point of view" standard. A "Positive" article and a "criticism of..." article are standards here, and I think they avoid a LOT of controversy that WP has mired itself in. Also, I vote "no" on including foreign language links, despite what's happened before. Articles in other languages have simply been added here among the other articles. - Nhprman 21:36, 22 November 2007 (EST)
    • As usual, my position is that more options is better, so I like the links to Wikipedias. Importing any article, including featured articles, gives us an opportunity to import and refine the templates and other bells and whistles from Wikipedia which improve our site. So, yes, please import featured articles, and images, and, if you have time and energy, improve them. We don't have enough folks that creating projects makes much sense, but feel free to do so. I think I might make a project on software compatibility and make lists of problems. Like for example the problem with Template:Infobox Settlement not displaying properly. I also want to import all policy pages and convert them, following the Wikipedia schema of policies and guidelines. I'm not running for arbitrator and will be devoting full time (as a retired person reckons it) to Wikinfo and to WaterWiki. Fred 21:49, 22 November 2007 (EST)
      • Since we're importing many of WP's policies, I hope we're not going to import all of it's problems. In other words, I hope this isn't going in the direction of WP, in which endless debates over policy will be taking place. "Process" issues can KILL a wiki. As I've said before here, the main culprit there is the founder (Jimbo Wales) believes in a "hands-off" laissez faire policy of management that simply is Utopian and unrealistic. I don't wanna go there. It's kind of insane. I also see little point in linking to foreign Wikipedia clones (which include the NPOV policy error, BTW) since we have foreign language articles actively being created here. Please explain what I'm missing.- Nhprman 00:26, 23 November 2007 (EST)

Wikinfo serves our users, and a link to any treatment of a subject in a foreign language is useful. Fred 20:56, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Adapting templates

Something I figured out about adapting templates and using the {{Wiki}} tag. Many templates have a /doc page that is transcluded onto the template page. Obviously, in the template itself, you need to use noinclude tags around the wiki tag, as in: <noinclude>{{Wiki}}</noinclude> otherwise you break the template. You should do this as well on the /doc page, otherwise, you get a double display of the wiki message on template page, which by default gives the address of the page you are viewing, not the page transcluded from, so it is redundant. You will still get the proper message (with the proper url) if you view the /doc page directly. People probably already knew this, but I didn't until I figured it out myself. I hadn't worked a lot with templates before, but I've been importing a herd of them the past couple of days. I'll have to go back and check some of the earlier ones I did to fix this, but it's not a calf killer, so I'll put it on my to do list and get back to it. - Crockspot 23:35, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Multilingual articles

Hi, Fred. I would like to import articles on "Pearl" from the Georgian, Armenian, & Vietnamese Wikipedias. Somehow they give interesting perpectives--maybe due to the weird alphabets of those languages. Do you think I should? Infomillionaire 05:00, 24 November 2007 (EST)

Sure. Link to them from the top of Pearl, as I will do with the Georgian version. Generally don't import anything you don't understand, otherwise it's just eye candy. But in this case, make an exception. I just installed Georgian fonts, so appreciate a little decoration. I've updated the article and added the Georgian version. I did not know it was Georgian at first, had to look it up, ka is the language code for Georgian. It doesn't look good with all the red links in it, but I wouldn't want to import more. I had to replace the Georgian word for image to make the image work. Fred 09:12, 24 November 2007 (EST)
Thanks, Fred. I'll do that. Ha! since you mentioned about eye candy, I realize maybe that's how I view of pearls--they're just eye candies! There's no real magic or value in them. But tell that to the wealthies and royal family members of many countries in the world (esp. the old world), we'll see their reaction. People (esp. the weathy ones) usually don't care about logics or facts or even truths, they just do what their hearts tell them to do. Maybe, this is where wisdom is superior than intelligence, or--I dare say--where empathy (WI) is much better than wizardry (WP). Infomillionaire 02:25, 25 November 2007 (EST)

AutoREDIRECT articles

By the way, the "DSM-IV" article doesn't REDIRECT automatically to the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" article because, I think, the former has the "References" section (that contains "Adapted from the Wikipedia ... GNU Free Documentation License"). Infomillionaire 05:00, 24 November 2007 (EST)

Yes, a GetWiki bug. There are many redirects which are not effective because of it. When you find it, remove all text before the hash mark # [2]. Fred 08:59, 24 November 2007 (EST)
Boy! There are so many of them (>1500). And you're right, but who would ever suspect that those little innocent comments can cause widespread problems? I've tried out your solution with 23 of them. Ran out of steam. Will continue later. I can feel what most administers feel. Administration is really work. It's no fun to clean up mess caused by users. Infomillionaire 02:25, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Orphaned articles

Oh, about orphaned articles: Is there a way to tell which of the contributed articles is orphaned--but not have to go through a very long list accessed through the "Special pages"? It would be neat to be able to tell it right on the user contributions page? Infomillionaire 05:00, 24 November 2007 (EST)

I'll keep an eye out for an extension or tool that might do this. For now, use "what links here" Fred 09:53, 24 November 2007 (EST)
Maybe this is where we need some sw wizards. Infomillionaire 02:25, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Where to find Fred

I also posted those sections above at User talk:FJB 02:58, 18 November 2007 (EST)

Not good, I usually log on, nowdays, as User:Fred Bauder. Fred 09:53, 24 November 2007 (EST)
10:4 Infomillionaire 02:25, 25 November 2007 (EST)

Special:Nuke

Useful, for administrators, for removing all new pages created by a vandal, see Special:Nuke. Fred 09:53, 24 November 2007 (EST)

That sounds really cool. I of course can't view it, but I'm a sysop on other wikis, and I'd love to copy the concept... Let's see, you get SpecialNuke.php, and follow instructions here and it doesn't work..... ooops, I got it, but don't know why.... I think I was using the wrong php file for the line in localsettings. Thanks for the idea (:
And, I know nothing, but would this be of use relative to the above discussion? [3] NameToFollow 02:53, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Wikinfo:To do

I have created Wikinfo:To do which contains tasks which need to be done to fix problems or improve Wikinfo. For example, how to make navboxes work, see Template:OPEC. Fred 08:44, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Featured articles

Out of frustration, I've thrown in the towel over at en.WP, at least for now. I will try to spend all of my wiki time improving this project.

I've started going down the list of WP's Featured Articles and adapting them. For efficiency's sake, I am going to do it in phased chunks, adapting the article first without adapting the images or replicating the redirects. I am keeping a list of adapted articles in a to-do list on my user page, so that I can go back through and then do the images and redirects phase in groups. If anyone has an inclination to jump in and do that second phase on articles I have already listed, feel free to make a notation after the article link on my user page, (mainly so I don't duplicate your efforts of looking for redirects on WP). - Crockspot 14:46, 2 December 2007 (EST)

I've done a little tweaking to the details on my user page. If anyone has suggestions, let me know. - Crockspot 16:14, 2 December 2007 (EST)
How possessive is Fred about Wikinfo: space? I'll add some stuff (my 4 imports were all FAs) but it might be easier to have a central location? --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:47, 2 December 2007 (EST)
Depends, just do it and we'll talk later. It's hard to simply describe policy, but basically, if it's useful to a user, it's OK. If it a bum steer, it's not. Fred 22:55, 2 December 2007 (EST)
I'm not thinking policy as much as a centralized place as saying "A bunch of users are doing X, and this is how far we are." --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:57, 2 December 2007 (EST)
As I said, do whatever seems useful. This is not our first rodeo. So, for example an administrators noticeboard could be created it there is a need for it, a project on featured articles, etc. I did create Wikinfo:To do. Perhaps you could add to what is there? Fred 00:41, 3 December 2007 (EST)
To continue with the cowboy metaphors, we don't need to become skinny cows stuck in the mud. We have the endless teat of Wikipedia to milk for resources, and I am rather enjoying sitting at the stool this evening. 'squirt.. squirt.. squirt... :) - Crockspot 00:47, 3 December 2007 (EST)
We have some time to figure it out. This isn't going to be quick initially, there are plenty of sidetracks that take up a lot of time, but eventually those will ripple out and make it faster later. I already caused some ripples tonight, just working for a couple of hours on WTC 7 adding images and templates. I found that several of the cite and geo templates were nonexistent, so I adapted those, and hundreds of other articles just had sources and coordinates appear in them automagically. That's the good thing about doing FA's, they tend to utilize a lot of templates and features, so you can branch out from one page, and it benefits many others to come, and makes less work later. - Crockspot 00:18, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Protected templates

I adapted some templates this evening, many of them protected. I'm generally going by the status of them on WP, if they are protected there, I'm protecting them here, if they aren't, I don't. But the overriding rationale I'm using is, how many potential articles will be screwed up if the template is vandalized? Cite and other very widely used templates should usually be protected, but infoboxes that are less widely used should not. (I think I went ahead and protected one cite template that was not protected on WP.) Sound like a good plan? - Crockspot 01:02, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Yes, although we do not have the server overhead they do. Changing a central template there can cause massive disruption as servers all over the world try to mirror the change. Here, a change will quickly resolve itself. Fred 06:59, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Some of the last templates I adapted last night having to do with meter to foot conversions seem broken, specifically the subroutines with the /dim and /range filenames. They're leaving big red error messages, seem to be choking on the [ and { characters. They worked at WP, so I don't really know how to fix them. - Crockspot 12:43, 3 December 2007 (EST)

I'll list the problem templates here. See the main template page doc section for the error output, which seems to be coming from a problem in the subroutine templates. Not all the templates that relate to cubic volume conversions have been adapted yet, I figured I would stop until this is figured out.

- Crockspot 13:14, 3 December 2007 (EST)

  • Template:Navbox appears to be broken, which is breaking other navboxes that call on it. Looks like a missing open tag for div and span, but I don't want to mess with it myself, not sure exactly where those open tags should go. - Crockspot 14:36, 3 December 2007 (EST)
    • I keep thinking it is a stylesheet problem, but don't know either. I suspect a missing extension. Fred 16:53, 3 December 2007 (EST)
  • Yeah, it does seem to be external to the template itself. I just imported Template:Navbox with columns, same problem. I wish I knew more about CSS. It's probably something really simple. We need a smart teenager. - Crockspot 22:20, 3 December 2007 (EST)
  • I just noticed that one nav template that I imported actually is NOT broken. See Template:WTC navigation. Maybe there is some sort of clue in that? - Crockspot 20:24, 5 December 2007 (EST)

Graduate student project request for assistance

My name is Thor Polukoshko. I am an English Masters student at Simon Fraser University (in British Columbia, Canada), and I am currently writing a research paper on reliability, truth, consensus, and Wikipedia. The main objective of my paper is to find a definition of "truth" as it applies to an online, collaborative project. I will be working mostly from what Jurgen Habermas defines as the "consensus theory of truth," focusing on Wikipedia’s hope that consensus will eventually lead to a higher level of reliability and verifiability.

I believe that the medium of communication is an integral part in the reception of any work that criticizes or discusses a specific medium--this is in part simply because of the fact that the work draws attention to the notion of “medium” as a possible subject for discourse. Thus, my project will take the form of a Wikipedia article, not only in the form of the finished product, but also in the process of its conception. By using only articles and other information found on public-access websites, I will be working within the realm of the “unreliable” media which I discuss. I believe that citing non-academic and other “unreliable” sources as my primary and secondary texts enables me to better develop my own guidelines for truth and reliability, and allows me to come to my own definitions of the two terms. Not only does this process help me, as a writer, to develop my own notions of reliability, but it also allows my readers to do the same. Because I will display the project online, and because it uses only internet sources, the employment of hypertext and hyperlinks will grant, to anyone who reads the essay, the same access to the sources I use. This means that my readers may easily check and evaluate the sources for themselves.

One of the main subjects of my essay is consensus, and I would like the methodology of my project to reflect this as well. I will be posting my essay on a sub-page of my Wikipedia user page, displaying it in the style of a Wikipedia article. By posting the essay on Wikipedia, my essay will be open to improvement (or vandalism), introducing a collaborative element, and a degree of consensus, to the project. Of course, some Wikipedians do not like this idea (the notion of using Wikipedia for a project that is not directly related to improving Wikipedia), but in order for my project to reflect any sort of consensus I need volunteer editors to read my essay (or, at the very least, part of my essay) and make changes to it.

Because Wikinfo is interested in original research, I was hoping to solicit volunteers to come and read my paper and improve it (Wikipedia does not want me to solicit on their site). Any suggestions or comments about getting the word out would be greatly appreciated.

I will be posting my essay to Wikipedia user page on December 10, 2007. Right now, you can visit the page and look at the rough arrangement of my subheadings to get an idea of what the project is about. If you have any further questions, please leave a message on my Wikipedia user page or email me.

--Thorblood 21:10, 6 December 2007 (EST)

This sounds like the kind of thing that will end up deleted from Wikipedia. But I think it would be allowed here. As for "truth", check Wikipedia:Verifiability. WP's standard for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth". There has been a lot of confusion as to what that statement means, but in a nutshell, just because something may be true does not mean that it can automatically be included in WP. It needs to be verifiable as to its truth, ie., reliably sourcable. Consensus plays a big part as to what is considered reliable as a source, and that can lead to problems and conflicts. Colbert's concept of Wikiality and Wikitruth, while satire, is not too far from the mark. Interesting project though, but don't be surprised if it ends up in an MfD and deleted, by consensus of course. - Crockspot 21:31, 6 December 2007 (EST)
It seems to me that Thorblood has a germane and to the point idea. My browser shows that Wikipedia isn't going to have him develop such an article there. Wikipedia is known for running off experts, so I wouldn't give up the idea. But there certainly is some vacuum to fill with a good, modern definition of consensus. Were I you, I might try that project out here and at citizendium, and at conservapedia. Terryeo 03:41, 8 December 2007 (EST)

The essay is now up on my Wikipedia user page. I'm giving it a week on Wikipedia for the purpose of my grad class (so please, go and edit it or comment on the discussion page), but I might think about posting it here on Wikinfo after that. --Thorblood 20:25, 10 December 2007 (EST)

Of course, just because something is verifiable doesn't make it true!--Taxwoman 07:43, 11 December 2007 (EST)

Spoken Wikipedia

Do we want to upload spoken articles? There is one for Matthew Brettingham, but it is over 6mb. If not, I can just remove the spoken template from the article. - Crockspot 02:15, 10 December 2007 (EST)

Set that up and imported the .oog file. Fred 09:10, 10 December 2007 (EST)
I'm going to create the article Wikipedia spoken articles which will make at least a link available to our listeners. If an article has been imported, we can updated to include the .oog file. Fred 10:09, 10 December 2007 (EST)
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